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	<title>Comments on: How can newspapers help Google?</title>
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	<link>http://steveouting.com/2009/04/12/how-can-newspapers-help-google/</link>
	<description>Journalist, consultant, entrepreneur ... Musings on digital media, Web 2.0/3.0, &#38; news in the Internet era</description>
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		<title>By: Steve Outing</title>
		<link>http://steveouting.com/2009/04/12/how-can-newspapers-help-google/comment-page-1/#comment-22812</link>
		<dc:creator>Steve Outing</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 15 Apr 2009 00:52:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://steveouting.com/?p=677#comment-22812</guid>
		<description>Ryan: Wouldn&#039;t calculation be, which brings in more $$?
1. Allow most credible (established brand) media to back out (which they seem poised to do) and keep all ad money on Google News.
or
2. Share ad money in order to keep Google News as leading news search/aggregation service because sources and best content don&#039;t dry up, thereby making GN a better ad-revenue generator.

Without doing the &quot;calculus,&quot; I&#039;d guess option 2 is more profitable. And it has the bonus of serving a public good (financing journalism at a time when it&#039;s beginning to fail our society).

Maybe Google is too big now and just another Microsoft. But I think of it as a different kind of company that wants to do the right thing. &quot;Do no evil.&quot;

Google letting journalism badly decline because it chose option 1 would be &quot;doing evil,&quot; no?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ryan: Wouldn&#8217;t calculation be, which brings in more $$?<br />
1. Allow most credible (established brand) media to back out (which they seem poised to do) and keep all ad money on Google News.<br />
or<br />
2. Share ad money in order to keep Google News as leading news search/aggregation service because sources and best content don&#8217;t dry up, thereby making GN a better ad-revenue generator.</p>
<p>Without doing the &#8220;calculus,&#8221; I&#8217;d guess option 2 is more profitable. And it has the bonus of serving a public good (financing journalism at a time when it&#8217;s beginning to fail our society).</p>
<p>Maybe Google is too big now and just another Microsoft. But I think of it as a different kind of company that wants to do the right thing. &#8220;Do no evil.&#8221;</p>
<p>Google letting journalism badly decline because it chose option 1 would be &#8220;doing evil,&#8221; no?</p>
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		<title>By: Ryan Tate</title>
		<link>http://steveouting.com/2009/04/12/how-can-newspapers-help-google/comment-page-1/#comment-22809</link>
		<dc:creator>Ryan Tate</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 15 Apr 2009 00:38:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://steveouting.com/?p=677#comment-22809</guid>
		<description>PS The cynical answer is that if adding those sources was financially justifiable, they&#039;d be profitable on their own, online.

The more optimistic answer is that their content is worth a lot more than they&#039;re fetching, they just need Google&#039;s packaging skills.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>PS The cynical answer is that if adding those sources was financially justifiable, they&#8217;d be profitable on their own, online.</p>
<p>The more optimistic answer is that their content is worth a lot more than they&#8217;re fetching, they just need Google&#8217;s packaging skills.</p>
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		<title>By: Ryan Tate</title>
		<link>http://steveouting.com/2009/04/12/how-can-newspapers-help-google/comment-page-1/#comment-22808</link>
		<dc:creator>Ryan Tate</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 15 Apr 2009 00:36:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://steveouting.com/?p=677#comment-22808</guid>
		<description>Steve, I hear you about it being a way to keep the newspapers from excluding Google News via (say) robots.txt. Interesting angle. I guess I just assumed that the newspapers/publishers would never dare do that. But their attitude does seem to be evolving rather quickly.

Google has to worry, though, about getting outmaneuvered by the competitor I mentioned and others. A Google Newsish aggregator can be built strictly on totally free new media sources right now (Twitter, blogs, professional Web publishers) and be very powerful without paying a cent. Does adding newspapers+AP+Reuters etc. really give enough of an edge financially to justify the payouts? That&#039;s the tough calculus Google must now do. Far from an easy call IMHO.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Steve, I hear you about it being a way to keep the newspapers from excluding Google News via (say) robots.txt. Interesting angle. I guess I just assumed that the newspapers/publishers would never dare do that. But their attitude does seem to be evolving rather quickly.</p>
<p>Google has to worry, though, about getting outmaneuvered by the competitor I mentioned and others. A Google Newsish aggregator can be built strictly on totally free new media sources right now (Twitter, blogs, professional Web publishers) and be very powerful without paying a cent. Does adding newspapers+AP+Reuters etc. really give enough of an edge financially to justify the payouts? That&#8217;s the tough calculus Google must now do. Far from an easy call IMHO.</p>
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		<title>By: The AP Reinvents Pathfinder &#171; Reinventing the Newsroom</title>
		<link>http://steveouting.com/2009/04/12/how-can-newspapers-help-google/comment-page-1/#comment-22691</link>
		<dc:creator>The AP Reinvents Pathfinder &#171; Reinventing the Newsroom</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 13 Apr 2009 16:58:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://steveouting.com/?p=677#comment-22691</guid>
		<description>[...] Outing, finally, suggests turning the Google-and-newspapers picture upside down, with newspapers cooperating with Google to fully monetize Google News by turning the &#8220;ad [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Outing, finally, suggests turning the Google-and-newspapers picture upside down, with newspapers cooperating with Google to fully monetize Google News by turning the &#8220;ad [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Steve Outing</title>
		<link>http://steveouting.com/2009/04/12/how-can-newspapers-help-google/comment-page-1/#comment-22683</link>
		<dc:creator>Steve Outing</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 13 Apr 2009 15:18:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://steveouting.com/?p=677#comment-22683</guid>
		<description>Chip: The big problem, though, is that newspapers have lost their power. Through inaction and inability to transform, they&#039;ve ceded it to the newcomers. A new news infrastructure is rising from entrepreneurs and laid-off newspaper employees, who are trying for- and non-profit models to become newspapers&#039; successors. It&#039;s still tiny now, but since newspapers at the metro level are now sinking so fast, the little guys will grow faster to fill in the holes.

So I don&#039;t feel like the newspaper industry has much bargaining power any more. They hesitated too long, and they basically blew it. 

The argument I&#039;m trying to make is that the full gamut of news providers -- from legacy institutions like newspapers, to underfunded start-ups like VoiceofSanDiego and Minnpost.com, to promising news sites like Politico and Talking Points Memo -- do not have enough money in the overall pool to support an effective press for this new age. Google and other successful aggregators and search companies need to help this situation, or else their news assets (Google News, et al) will lose value.

I just don&#039;t see the AP&#039;s growling as being loud enough any more to force Google to cut them in on the deal. Better to make the case that the situation for news providers is so bad that it will hurt Google if it doesn&#039;t help out.

We&#039;ll see how it turns out. I strongly suspect my advice will be ignored and we&#039;ll quickly see a bunch of papers step backward and erect pay walls.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Chip: The big problem, though, is that newspapers have lost their power. Through inaction and inability to transform, they&#8217;ve ceded it to the newcomers. A new news infrastructure is rising from entrepreneurs and laid-off newspaper employees, who are trying for- and non-profit models to become newspapers&#8217; successors. It&#8217;s still tiny now, but since newspapers at the metro level are now sinking so fast, the little guys will grow faster to fill in the holes.</p>
<p>So I don&#8217;t feel like the newspaper industry has much bargaining power any more. They hesitated too long, and they basically blew it. </p>
<p>The argument I&#8217;m trying to make is that the full gamut of news providers &#8212; from legacy institutions like newspapers, to underfunded start-ups like VoiceofSanDiego and Minnpost.com, to promising news sites like Politico and Talking Points Memo &#8212; do not have enough money in the overall pool to support an effective press for this new age. Google and other successful aggregators and search companies need to help this situation, or else their news assets (Google News, et al) will lose value.</p>
<p>I just don&#8217;t see the AP&#8217;s growling as being loud enough any more to force Google to cut them in on the deal. Better to make the case that the situation for news providers is so bad that it will hurt Google if it doesn&#8217;t help out.</p>
<p>We&#8217;ll see how it turns out. I strongly suspect my advice will be ignored and we&#8217;ll quickly see a bunch of papers step backward and erect pay walls.</p>
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		<title>By: AP may be dumb, but they&#8217;re not wrong &#171; all.the.news.to.web</title>
		<link>http://steveouting.com/2009/04/12/how-can-newspapers-help-google/comment-page-1/#comment-22681</link>
		<dc:creator>AP may be dumb, but they&#8217;re not wrong &#171; all.the.news.to.web</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 13 Apr 2009 14:51:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://steveouting.com/?p=677#comment-22681</guid>
		<description>[...] AP may be dumb, but they&#8217;re not&#160;wrong 2009 April 13    by Chip Kaye   NOTE: this post is a response to the blog post How can newspapers help Google? [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] AP may be dumb, but they&#8217;re not&nbsp;wrong 2009 April 13    by Chip Kaye   NOTE: this post is a response to the blog post How can newspapers help Google? [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Chip Kaye</title>
		<link>http://steveouting.com/2009/04/12/how-can-newspapers-help-google/comment-page-1/#comment-22680</link>
		<dc:creator>Chip Kaye</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 13 Apr 2009 14:36:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://steveouting.com/?p=677#comment-22680</guid>
		<description>&quot;I find the mindset of the AP (as expressed by its CEO) to be archaic&quot;

No doubt - Tom Curly has brought a desperate sounding, ham-fisted voice to the table - &quot;beacons&quot;, &quot;fair use&quot;, &quot;policing&quot;, etc.  But that doesn&#039;t mean there isn&#039;t a fundamentally important issue here.  Unfortunately, the issue is being misunderstood as everybody enjoys a debate driven by emotion, personality and the specific question of Google (bad) vs. AP (dumb).

I think the question we need to consider is a general one: how will content providers charge content aggregators for content links - who, when, and how much.  Especially how much.  Forget about &quot;walled gardens&quot; vs. &quot;linked economy&quot; - we get it: inbound links must not greet users with a paywall.  But that has nothing to do with the financial arrangements between bussinesses like Google and AP.  But,  you say: Google has a &quot;multi-million&quot; dollar licensing deal with AP?  WOW - you mean &quot;wahn MEEELYON dollars&quot;?!!  How about we try some other figures - how about, say, $500M annually?  And Yahoo - how about another $300M annually?  And HuffPo - how about $5M?  And your local community news site - how about $0?  Point being, I have no clue what those specific figures should be or how the scale should be applied, but it seems clear that whatever amount is currently being payed by successful aggregators is too close to zero.

None of this is to suggest the news industry should be off the hook for past failures or working to innovate going forward.  But AP does have a legitimate argument around the specifics of licensing content aggregators.  &quot;If we could &#039;please just all get along&#039;” is a nice idea, but this is about cold, hard business - the syndication business in particular.  Content aggregation players are enjoying a bonanza for the moment b/c there is little or no cost for the raw material (and a headline link *is* a valuable raw material).  And that is a good thing - for now - b/c it gives rise to innovative new models like HuffPo&#039;s link-journalism + added commentary.  But things eventually have to change enough to support the cost of producing that original content.  Call it a system in chaos starting to find economic equilibrium.  Call it whatever you like, but as the dust settles, and the bottom lines come into focus, there are going to be adjustments.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;I find the mindset of the AP (as expressed by its CEO) to be archaic&#8221;</p>
<p>No doubt &#8211; Tom Curly has brought a desperate sounding, ham-fisted voice to the table &#8211; &#8220;beacons&#8221;, &#8220;fair use&#8221;, &#8220;policing&#8221;, etc.  But that doesn&#8217;t mean there isn&#8217;t a fundamentally important issue here.  Unfortunately, the issue is being misunderstood as everybody enjoys a debate driven by emotion, personality and the specific question of Google (bad) vs. AP (dumb).</p>
<p>I think the question we need to consider is a general one: how will content providers charge content aggregators for content links &#8211; who, when, and how much.  Especially how much.  Forget about &#8220;walled gardens&#8221; vs. &#8220;linked economy&#8221; &#8211; we get it: inbound links must not greet users with a paywall.  But that has nothing to do with the financial arrangements between bussinesses like Google and AP.  But,  you say: Google has a &#8220;multi-million&#8221; dollar licensing deal with AP?  WOW &#8211; you mean &#8220;wahn MEEELYON dollars&#8221;?!!  How about we try some other figures &#8211; how about, say, $500M annually?  And Yahoo &#8211; how about another $300M annually?  And HuffPo &#8211; how about $5M?  And your local community news site &#8211; how about $0?  Point being, I have no clue what those specific figures should be or how the scale should be applied, but it seems clear that whatever amount is currently being payed by successful aggregators is too close to zero.</p>
<p>None of this is to suggest the news industry should be off the hook for past failures or working to innovate going forward.  But AP does have a legitimate argument around the specifics of licensing content aggregators.  &#8220;If we could &#8216;please just all get along&#8217;” is a nice idea, but this is about cold, hard business &#8211; the syndication business in particular.  Content aggregation players are enjoying a bonanza for the moment b/c there is little or no cost for the raw material (and a headline link *is* a valuable raw material).  And that is a good thing &#8211; for now &#8211; b/c it gives rise to innovative new models like HuffPo&#8217;s link-journalism + added commentary.  But things eventually have to change enough to support the cost of producing that original content.  Call it a system in chaos starting to find economic equilibrium.  Call it whatever you like, but as the dust settles, and the bottom lines come into focus, there are going to be adjustments.</p>
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		<title>By: Steve Outing</title>
		<link>http://steveouting.com/2009/04/12/how-can-newspapers-help-google/comment-page-1/#comment-22619</link>
		<dc:creator>Steve Outing</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 13 Apr 2009 03:17:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://steveouting.com/?p=677#comment-22619</guid>
		<description>Ryan: As I tried to make clear, this is not about Google &quot;having to pay.&quot; It&#039;s about the newspaper industry being desperate, and therefore deciding to talk with Google and come up with a plan (not a demand, not a threat) that allows Google to monetize Google News and grow it and improve it. If news companies get in on the discussion stage of development of such a program, they&#039;ll be more likely to talk Google into giving news providers (ALL, not just newspapers) a workable slice of the pie. Both sides benefit. If Google monetizes Google News without cutting news providers in on a reasonable revenue cut, the biggest media companies (the ones stuck in old mindsets and unable to view Google as friend and not foe) will either send in the lawyers or opt out, and Google News becomes a less valuable service, and less valuable an asset to Google.

If all Eric Schmidt has to offer is, &quot;We figure out ways to send you even more traffic, then you news guys monetize that,&quot; the based on the sentiment of old-school publishers who remain in power, the biggest news companies will remove themselves from Google News&#039; reaches and build pay walls. You can argue that that would be a dumb move (and I&#039;d argue that), but it looks like the news industry is dead set on going that route.

&quot;Why should it have to share the upside?&quot; Because if it doesn&#039;t, everybody loses, including Google, and including the public. (I view news as a public good, and the current online news landscape means that more people have access to more news and knowledge.)

As for &quot;setting a precedent,&quot; so what? It doesn&#039;t have to have an impact on any other entity. They&#039;re free to implement similar programs IF IT BENEFITS THEM. But just like Google, those other entities operate in the interests of their shareholders and investors, not news providers. They&#039;ll act to benefit news providers if it is in their interest.

Let&#039;s keep the lawyers out of this (since they&#039;d have a dubious case suggesting that what Google and other aggregators do is a violation of &quot;fair use&quot;). Google has the money to fight hard against any legal precedent that would tighten what we regard as the definition of fair use. I doubt struggling news companies could afford to put up much of a fight.

As long as a revenue-share plan is mutually beneficial and not coercive to anyone, it shouldn&#039;t affect start-ups in this space. That would only happen if this thing turns the wrong way, the news dinosaurs decide to sue to tighten fair use online, and we get a bad court ruling that upsets the link economy.

I find the mindset of the AP (as expressed by its CEO) to be archaic, and also dangerous. If we could &quot;please just all get along&quot; and find a plan to works for both sides, then we reduce the risk of damaging the Internet and high value of the link economy. I would hate to see old thinking by powerful interests ruin a good thing.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ryan: As I tried to make clear, this is not about Google &#8220;having to pay.&#8221; It&#8217;s about the newspaper industry being desperate, and therefore deciding to talk with Google and come up with a plan (not a demand, not a threat) that allows Google to monetize Google News and grow it and improve it. If news companies get in on the discussion stage of development of such a program, they&#8217;ll be more likely to talk Google into giving news providers (ALL, not just newspapers) a workable slice of the pie. Both sides benefit. If Google monetizes Google News without cutting news providers in on a reasonable revenue cut, the biggest media companies (the ones stuck in old mindsets and unable to view Google as friend and not foe) will either send in the lawyers or opt out, and Google News becomes a less valuable service, and less valuable an asset to Google.</p>
<p>If all Eric Schmidt has to offer is, &#8220;We figure out ways to send you even more traffic, then you news guys monetize that,&#8221; the based on the sentiment of old-school publishers who remain in power, the biggest news companies will remove themselves from Google News&#8217; reaches and build pay walls. You can argue that that would be a dumb move (and I&#8217;d argue that), but it looks like the news industry is dead set on going that route.</p>
<p>&#8220;Why should it have to share the upside?&#8221; Because if it doesn&#8217;t, everybody loses, including Google, and including the public. (I view news as a public good, and the current online news landscape means that more people have access to more news and knowledge.)</p>
<p>As for &#8220;setting a precedent,&#8221; so what? It doesn&#8217;t have to have an impact on any other entity. They&#8217;re free to implement similar programs IF IT BENEFITS THEM. But just like Google, those other entities operate in the interests of their shareholders and investors, not news providers. They&#8217;ll act to benefit news providers if it is in their interest.</p>
<p>Let&#8217;s keep the lawyers out of this (since they&#8217;d have a dubious case suggesting that what Google and other aggregators do is a violation of &#8220;fair use&#8221;). Google has the money to fight hard against any legal precedent that would tighten what we regard as the definition of fair use. I doubt struggling news companies could afford to put up much of a fight.</p>
<p>As long as a revenue-share plan is mutually beneficial and not coercive to anyone, it shouldn&#8217;t affect start-ups in this space. That would only happen if this thing turns the wrong way, the news dinosaurs decide to sue to tighten fair use online, and we get a bad court ruling that upsets the link economy.</p>
<p>I find the mindset of the AP (as expressed by its CEO) to be archaic, and also dangerous. If we could &#8220;please just all get along&#8221; and find a plan to works for both sides, then we reduce the risk of damaging the Internet and high value of the link economy. I would hate to see old thinking by powerful interests ruin a good thing.</p>
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		<title>By: Chris O'Brien</title>
		<link>http://steveouting.com/2009/04/12/how-can-newspapers-help-google/comment-page-1/#comment-22617</link>
		<dc:creator>Chris O'Brien</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 13 Apr 2009 02:17:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://steveouting.com/?p=677#comment-22617</guid>
		<description>Interesting idea. Just to follow it through, it&#039;s also worth noting that despite all the hype Google News receives, it&#039;s still an also-ran compared to Yahoo News in terms of traffic. So...it would seem Google could actually use some help here.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Interesting idea. Just to follow it through, it&#8217;s also worth noting that despite all the hype Google News receives, it&#8217;s still an also-ran compared to Yahoo News in terms of traffic. So&#8230;it would seem Google could actually use some help here.</p>
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		<title>By: Top 5 Things I&#8217;ll Pay for on the Web : Words + Pictures = Web</title>
		<link>http://steveouting.com/2009/04/12/how-can-newspapers-help-google/comment-page-1/#comment-22614</link>
		<dc:creator>Top 5 Things I&#8217;ll Pay for on the Web : Words + Pictures = Web</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 13 Apr 2009 01:53:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://steveouting.com/?p=677#comment-22614</guid>
		<description>[...] How can newspapers help Google? [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] How can newspapers help Google? [...]</p>
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